Soapbox - Learners

[Sid]

Ha Ha yeah, the "I used to have one of those" brigade sometimes get on my nerves as well.
Especially when they try to hide their obvious envy by saying things like "Oh, cars have progressed a lot since then, haven't they".
I sometimes feel like replying "Well, if your cloned jelly-mould is such an improvement, how come you were so compelled to talk
about MY car?"

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clara" <themajorsniece@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <general@vauxhallviva.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 9:23 AM
Subject: Soapbox - Learners


> Being in an old car you're more noticeable to other drivers (especially when you are in a rush and trying to get out of a car park
> but annoying old men want to tell you their life story because they once sat besides a car similar to yours).
> --



This post was made via email to the Vauxhall Viva Owners Club
Visit us at www.vauxhallviva.com

[Sid]

I agree totally. I've been arguing this point with people for years.
Regardless or crumple zones, in a collision between "heavy" and "light" the occupant of the heavy car suffers less decelerative
force, and the "rigid" car suffers less damage than the deformable car, with the occupants of the rigid car actually receiving
*greater* benefit from the "soft" cars crumple zones than the soft car's occupants (who'll probably get crushed).
The only time it helps you to be in a "soft" car is if you hit a solid object like a big tree (or a heavier car!), and the best time
to be in a "light" one is when you still have a chance of stopping!.

Its also true that safety features like ABS make drivers worse without even realising. I had an ABS car for 5 years and then went to
a similar car with no ABS and I could believe how often I was locking up the wheels (especially in the wet) until I got used to it
again.

Ironically, the most effective method of ensuring road safety is fear of the consequences. You rarely see a motorcyclist run into
the back of a car or pull out of a side exit in front of a car, and that's because they know it will hurt!
If every new car had to have its airbag filled with shrapnel then the roads would undoubtably be much safer places

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "lambaj" <antony.lamb@selex-sas.com>


To be honest, the best way to survive an accident is to make sure you are in the biggest, strongest car going.the cars.
>
> Ok, open flood gates ! [Wink]
>
> Tony (HA21)
> --



This post was made via email to the Vauxhall Viva Owners Club
Visit us at www.vauxhallviva.com

[pbottomley]

At the end of the day its the drivers not the cars that cause accident (on the whole) so maybe safety devices aside ppl need to learn to drive better.

Too often we take saftey devices fitted to cars without question, we could reduce accidents to zero if seatbelts were made illigal and fitted a 9inch spike from the steering wheel towards the drivers nose.

As for a viva thats what you have allbeit less the spike, so maybe GM and Vauxhall were forward thinking safety when they designed the car ?

[droopsnoot]

I firmly believe that this is why there has been a recent increase in the number of young drivers killed or seriously injured. They're used to driving modern cars with lots of safety features, which means that they feel invincible once they're on the road legally. Added to that, they go out and instead of buying an old car as a first car, like I had to, they go and get a new <insert small hot-hatch name here> because it's on interest-free credit, free insurance, and never experience how a car is put together, how it works, and why it stops working and what to do about it.

I'm not saying everyone should have an old car first, but I know that when I'm driving the Firenza I do think about what would happen if someone hit me, or I went off the road, because I've had the thing in bits so I know what's holding it together. My first car was a HC Viva, and I got to know how it worked because I couldn't just take it back under warranty if there was something wrong with it.

With a reasonable driver, the lack of all this stuff won't matter. For example, I went to Billing last year, and I thought the 100+ miles down the M6 and M1 without door mirrors would be a nightmare, and that I'd be stuck in the left hand lane at 40mph for the whole journey. In fact what happened was I drove a lot smoother because I was paying attention to traffic coming up behind me, anticipating a gap that I could pull into, doing so, then moving back when I had good visibility.

Sure, door mirrors are useful - for example if I drive past a fit-looking girl walking along the pavement I automatically go for the door mirror so I can check out the other side - but I don't think not having them makes me dangerous.

[Sid]

It would be interesting to see if there's a correlation between car safety ratings and insurance claims.
I've long held the belief that the worst drivers *tend* to buy the "safest" cars.
I bet claim statistics would back that up.

Your compulsory spike idea would certainly benefit road safety, though I think side-impact-sticks-of-dynamite would have greater
long term benefit in the removal the very worst drivers from our roads

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "pbottomley" <webmaster@vauxhallviva.com>


> At the end of the day its the drivers not the cars that cause accident (on the whole) so maybe safety devices aside ppl need to
> learn to drive better.
>
> Too often we take saftey devices fitted to cars without question, we could reduce accidents to zero if seatbelts were made illigal
> and fitted a 9inch spike from the steering wheel towards the drivers nose.



This post was made via email to the Vauxhall Viva Owners Club
Visit us at www.vauxhallviva.com

[Tigran]

Sure, door mirrors are useful - for example if I drive past a fit-looking girl walking along the pavement I automatically go for the door mirror so I can check out the other side - but I don't think not having them makes me dangerous.

Amen to that brother. I think we are loosing track of what's important - and that right there has put it all back on track.



*goes to fix the chromies to his viva*

[Clara]

Sure, door mirrors are useful - for example if I drive past a fit-looking girl walking along the pavement I automatically go for the door mirror so I can check out the other side - but I don't think not having them makes me dangerous.

[lambaj]

Aha, but Clara has also pointed out the other benefit of the older cars when oogling..... better all round visibility......

Tee hee!
Tony

[griffonmark]

I spent 20 years dealing with car crashes in my career as a consultant vehicle assessor and accident investigator. I ride motorcycles, have exceeded 160mph regularly with nothing to hold onto other than skinny handlebars and a small shiny seat gripping my hairy a**e. I don't think having a seatbelt and an airbag on my GSXR1000 would have made me go any faster. I knew that if anyone pulled out on me, if my tyre burst, if a block of frozen urine fell in front of me from a Boeing toilet, then I was going to die a horrible death. I still did this, and I still drive my Griffon deathtrap to work knowing what happens in accidents. I have seen old Viva's, Escorts, MGBs, Beetles etc. by the hundred fallen to pieces on impact. Old cars were built to shocking standards even when new. Their crash resistance was appalling. When they got to over 6 years old they fell apart. Modern cars are a world apart. If safety bothers you, buy a decent sized modern vehicle with airbags, abs, retracting seatbelts, white paint with an orange stripe, a fuel consumption meter and a small engine and be bored to death.

The biggest problems with modern cars is the speed they are capable of and the fact that most owners do not understand stopping distances and are poor at assessing the speed of oncoming vehicles. They have a lack of awareness of other driver's and are poor at avoiding potential accidents. I surveyed the most common accidents whilst employed by one insurer and rear end collisions far outweighed anything else. However, the more severe accidents involving severe injury or death often involved people going too fast in small, poorly built cars offering little crash protection. Intyerestingly, mechanical failure was a very small proportion of all crashes, the worst mechanical problem being tyre failure. Modern tyres are much more durable (who has punctures any more?) but owners have crashes by driving too far and fast on modern spacesavers.

Modern crash protection, especially crumple zones, progressive collapsing side impact bars, airbags, curtains, tensioners etc. don't prevent accidents, but massively reduce injury. ABS helps avoid accidents and reduces impact for even the most experienced drivers.

Modern cars appear to crush easily but don't be fooled. They have extremely strong main structures with collapsing external members designed to absorb impact forces. Wheels don't ram up through floors like they used to and steering columns don't impale drivers quite so much.

Just slow down, be observant, don't drive under influence, always be able to stop in the distance you can see, keep awake, keep out of the way of others and you'll live longer whatever you drive.

[dann01]

Most of you seemed to have mirrored the sentiments of the arguments I gave my friend. Namely that younger drivers, having learned in gizmo safety featured cars, then find themselves in a car without all these features, and ends up Killing themselves and probably others too because the car won't think for them.

If they learned to drive in real car. (Something in which you can feel how many legs that insect you just ran over had) perhaps their perception of driving, and their skills in general would be improved.

Of course, the odd thing here is that over the last ten years or so, the driving test has become harder to pass. The introduction of the two part test, the new Harzard Perception Test carried out on a PC at the test centre, and now the concept of show and tell where the pupil has to show and explain to the examiner how various bits of the car work, has raised the standard required to get a licence... The trouble is, generally, the standard of driving has dropped. I guess once they pass their test, the really useful stuff is forgotten.

And the Pass plus scheme that instructors push to drivers after they have passed their test aside, Learners are not taken on a motorway, and that really miffs me. My first time on a motorway was terrifying, I imagine it's no less easier now, despite so called safer cars.

Q - And honest answers - who can remember the stopping distances?