Soapbox - Learners

[dann01]

A good friend of mine is a driving instructor, and he takes great pleasure in winding me up. Our discussions can get very lively. Regardless of however heated our debates, we somehow manage to remain friends.

Anyway, he rattled my cage by say that my Viva, indeed, all old cars, should be banned from the road as they are dangerous. They have no air bags, no power stearing or ABC. No SIPPS, No ESP and no anti-lock brakes that the modern cars that young drivers are now learning to drive in have.

My argument was 4 fold, and our debate went long into the evening.

What say you fellow old car drivers?

Regards
Danny

[MattHC1600SL]

Old cars are only dangerous if you crash them. Dont crash them and you should be fine. Matt.

This post was made via email to the Vauxhall Viva Owners Club
Visit us at www.vauxhallviva.com

[Clara]

Having learnt to drive in the HA I can honestly say it is safer than a modern car.

Reasons

- greater visibility
- lack of seat belts makes you think carefully
- with no great speed (certainly not in mine!) you have to be careful with your road positions, over taking, etc. because you can't get out of the way as easily

Rear wheel drive is so much nicer to drive.

And of course my HA has never had any dangerous electrical failures (which the vauxhall corsa I took my test in did - causing me to hand signal for half of the test)

[Tigran]

Driving an old car is great. It's like putting a big rusty 2foot wood nail in the centre of your wheel - you know if you crash you are going to be really really messed up - so you concentrate more on not crashing.

Also standard vivas (not 2.3's) can't really get enough speed up to have a crash, aaand another thing - in my humble opinion without all the electronic gadgetry a person actually learns to drive the car and not rely on technology to save their skins.

My tuppence.

[mazzo]

I agree with that principle. There is a school of thought that says with the advent of ABS, airbags, crumple zones, side impact bars, etc, the motorist feels much safer - and in doing so drives with a little less care because the "car" will protect him. Motorcyclists use this arguement quite a lot (at least the ones I know do). I tend to agree with them. If you didn't have ABS brakes, you knew you had work to do to stop skidding when you braked abruptly. If you have ABS, you don't need to think like that anymore.

Where old cars become dangerous is when unseen corrosion weakens the structure of the vehicle and it almost disintergrates in a serious collision. You only need to look at banger racing to see this happen.

At the end of the day, driving is most dangerous when the driver isn't paying attention, being stupid or just lacking skill.

[pbottomley]

Modern cars are very safe, until some idiot gets behind the wheel. Classic cars may be driven with respect, therfore you liable not to cause an accident, but it will not stop that idiot hitting you, thats where seatbelts, side bars etc all come into their own.

Like a lot of things it sometimes takes two to tango.

Sad but maybe your mate (instructor) has a point about the classic car.

Its not the classic car, its not the driver of the classic car, its not the modern car, its the driver of the modern car on their mobile phone, driving too fast, etc.

The world has moved on since the 1960's ans 70's more cars on the road, faster roads, more idiots all out to get somwhere yesterday, white van man doing what he does best, take both lanes at the same time, boom bass children in novas.

[shamm]

Older cars teach you the true meaning of braking distance!
They also give you more feedback, power everything means you don't know you are on the limit until you pass it.

My main concern is being hit by some other muppet, knowing I can't get front wings makes me drive carefully.

And on the subject of 2.3's, while they do allow you to go faster at no point do they make you feel safe or relaxed. Above seventy the road noise also becomes loud enough to deafen over distance.

[Tigran]

*makes mental note to get REALLY chunky door bars for the cage*

[Clara]

Being in an old car you're more noticeable to other drivers (especially when you are in a rush and trying to get out of a car park but annoying old men want to tell you their life story because they once sat besides a car similar to yours).

[lambaj]

All points of this "arguement" seem fair. Unfortuantely for us ( the old car crew) in an accident, it comes down to physics, and the energy absorbsion game. To be honest, the best way to survive an accident is to make sure you are in the biggest, strongest car going. I saw a graphic example of what I mean on the TV. Can't remember the exacts, but it was a head on crash test between something like a 600 series Merc, and a NCAP 4* supermini (a corsa I think). Anyway, the merc basically drove most of the way through the corsa. There was nothing left except the boot........ Not nice, and not survivable with all the airbags in the world. The mercs front impact crumple zone did collapse, but when you ask the corsas to do the same, 2.5 tonnes verses 0.9 tonnes, it a no brainer.

So, how do you protect yourself in the worst case senario where all the careful driving in the world can't avoid an accident ? The only way I can see is to make your old car into a rigid cage. This is something I'm doing with the black HA should the worse happen. As our cars are not designed with crumple zones, the only way to soften an impact is to use the thing you hit as a crumple zone...... Ethics and all that have to go out the window I'm afraid. Interestingly enough, this is pretty much exactly what the Smart car does. Their issue is no space for a crumple zone - the car is too small, so the shell is super strong and uses what ever it hits to adsorb the energy.
The only problem with this is of course that the driver/passengers then have to absorb a far greater impact through the seatbelts etc. Still, I think a bit of whiplash, compressed spine and broken collar bones are still preferable to splat ! (MAYBE!)

Nice subject this one .......

Of course, I also have the same issues as Clara and a few other HA owners with the early HA's - no seatbelts. All HA's can have belts fitted - they all have the mounting points, but to many, its "wrong" to fit belts to a non-belted car - its not original. Of course the same is true for the structural changes - massive work and completely non-original. You can fit collapsable steering columns, modern inertia reel belts, better brakes, better everything, but at the end of the day, the ol viva shell is pretty feeble in the event of an accident.
Still, if you took no risks in life, you would never even get out of the bed......

So, go learn predictive driving techniques to learn to spot the muppets in there insulated high speed crumple zones about to try to do you a nasty, drive with double safety distances and try not to get upset when somebody kindly fills your carefully maintained braking distance, make sure you car is well services and the brakes are at optimum at all times, and drive well within the limits of your abilities and the cars.

Ok, open flood gates !

Tony (HA21)