Modern cars

[pbottomley]

Itys true for all cars, if one follows the book to the letter, there should be no reason a car cannot outlive its owner. Know a bloke in lemington Spa who has a morris Minor that he uses everyday for learner driving, it has 650,000 miles on the clock and still on its first engine.

It comes down to not what it is, but how it is used.

[Sid]

Agreed, you can't always trust the displayed mileage (almost never on imports), though you can get a *fair* indicator of whether its
genuine just by looking at the condition of the engine, the drivers seat, pedal rubbers, etc.
Old MOTs are the best indicator, as well.

I'd argue that a high mileage could be just as fake as a low mileage. Just 'cos a car shows 175000 doesnt mean it hasnt done 200000,
anymore that a 50000 mile car might have done 75000. You just have to use judgement.

In the case of my Rover, yes, I'd say the mileage is within the realms of believability given that the last owner was an old bloke.
6K a year is pretty average for a "town" driver.
My Dads older Rover has averaged half that over the last 10 years, which I *know* to be genuine.

Let's face it there's little money to be made by "clocking" old Rovers anyway so I doubt any dealer would bother.

Now, on something like my '93 Toyota Supra *import* that's another matter, cos these fetch big money with low recorded mileages and
its more than coincidence they all seem to arrive in the UK with about 52K on the clock. Fortunately they're reputedly good for
175000 plus so I'm not too worried at the moment.

Bottom line though is if I see two identical condition looking cars (not talking classics here, I mean everyday runabouts), I'm
always gonna choose the one with the lower (if believable) mileage, irrespective of age.
That choice has never let me down yet, I've run sub-600 quid everyday cars for the last 25 years (most under 300 in fact) and most
have lasted me 3 - 5 years each, or have been sold-on while still running, but I've yet to have any car survive much beyond 150000
recorded miles so I'll never buy an everyday car with a 6 figure mileage.
I leave the stories of surviving "quarter million mile" cars to the very fortunate minority, 'cos most cars in the scrappy still
have under 130000, even the "modern" ones.

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "droopsnoot" <general@vauxhallviva.com>
To: <general@vauxhallviva.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Modern cars

In fact when I look at a reasonably old car I'm usually sceptical about the mileage anyway - your example of a '97 plate Rover
with 57k on the >clock equates to about 6k per year, does that sound realistic? I know there are cars like that (my Dad's 1970
Morris 1300 has a genuine 37k on it, >and my Mum's J-plate Nova GTE has less than 40k) but they are the exception. But it's like
buying anything with some age on it - if you came to >buy my HPF, would you look at the mileage, or the condition?

[Sid]

True, careful ownership and proper maintenance are the keys to any cars longevity, though blimey, 650000 miles for an original
A-series seems beyond belief.
Surely that's been rebuilt (about 5 times!)??? I mean, when all said and done, however careful you are, bearings and piston rings
can't last forever!

A 6 digit mileometer is a rare thing on an old car anyway. Morris must've known something!

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "pbottomley" <general@vauxhallviva.com>
To: <general@vauxhallviva.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Modern cars

Itys true for all cars, if one follows the book to the letter, there should be no reason a car cannot outlive its owner. Know a
bloke in lemington Spa who has a morris Minor that he uses everyday for learner driving, it has 650,000 miles on the clock and
still on its first engine.

It comes down to not what it is, but how it is used.

[pbottomley]

Ohh god yes the engine has been rebuilt several times, but he has all the paperwork from the day he bought it new... In 1958..

I was in contact with him last year when I was looking for a moggie for sale and desperatly wanted him to deed it to me when he retires from driving (hes retired from work but not driving yet )

I was using its as an extreme example of what can be done is one is careful, bloody minded and anal about lookinag after a car...


Remember the old adage "let the buyer beware"

[Sid]

Ah, I see, well that starts a whole new debate on the merits of the older car, because rebuilding engines on *modern* cars just
isn't cost effective like it is on old ones.
You'd be looking at a couple of grand to do a full engine rebuild on almost anything manufactured in the last 10 years so nobody
bothers anymore.
Even used engines from a breakers are commonly asking 500 quid nowadays for late models, so it's cheaper just to scrap to car and
buy another, because solid 10-12 year old cars are virtually ten-a-penny now.

It's ironic that manufacturers made big improvements in anti-corrosion protection, but electrical and mechanical repair costs are so
prohibitive that the scrapyards are now full of rust-free cars!

Make the most of your classics because we're looking at the end of an era here.
Nobody is gonna bother preserving cars from the 21st century, of that I'm certain.

The only future event that could create 21st century classics, will be when the internal combustion engine is phased-out. After that
*anything* with a fuel-burning engine will be an instant classic!

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "pbottomley" <general@vauxhallviva.com>
Subject: Re: Modern cars

Ohh god yes the engine has been rebuilt several times, but he has all the paperwork from the day he bought it new... In 1958..

[pbottomley]

Good point Sid, if its modern stuff, then its designed to be thrown away... Which manufactorer is ever going to have a sound buisnes model if its cars last more than say 10 years? they would run out of people to sell cars too, and never get return income if the car was too reliable.

Rust proofing (on the whole) is better, but as you say the scrap yards are full of them. Why because we live in a disposable society, where to follow the fashion of having NEW not OLD is the right thing.

I guess the rebel inside me doesnt always believe in the way society throws things away. Kelly will testify I am forever rescuing PC's from coucil tips and recycling them (started doing steros as well at one point) This is one of the reasons why I do classics... I believe its sound environmentalism.

To make a car costs a lot in raw materials and carbon burnt. To scrap a car costs even more money and carbon burnt. No matter what arguments a person may give about how newer cars are greener, when you weigh up the total carbon footprint of a new car , having a classic makes sound sense.

That said they are wholy less reliable unless you invest the time, that a more modern car. But i would rather do this and have a smile on my face that look glum in a euro box.

[Sid]

I agree 100%.
Sadly the politicians and many green lobbiests dont seem to realise that sound vehicular environmental policy cant determined just
by measuring what comes out of the exhaust pipe.
They make the mistake of assuming re-cycling will take care of the waste issue, again failing to consider that recycling operations
have their own environmental impact.

As you say, classic cars ownership is an ideal way to help the environment.
By preserving old cars we reduce new car production, we reduce the necessity to re-cycle materials, indeed we recycle ourselves by
breaking and re-using parts of cars that are too far gone to preserve.

It makes me angry that some of the "greens" look at us as a manace to the environment, when in actual fact we're the complete
opposite.

As for fashion, well I've spent my whole life taking great pleasure in being legendarily UNfashionable, and I never throw anything
away that still works or dispose of any item of clothing that still has enough cloth between the holes to remain in one piece

Sid

----- Original Message -----
From: "pbottomley" <general@vauxhallviva.com>
Subject: Re: Modern cars

Rust proofing (on the whole) is better, but as you say the scrap yards are full of them. Why because we live in a disposable
society, where to follow the fashion of having NEW not OLD is the right thing.

To make a car costs a lot in raw materials and carbon burnt. To scrap a car costs even more money and carbon burnt. No matter what
arguments a person may give about how newer cars are greener, when you weigh up the total carbon footprint of a new car , having a
classic makes sound sense.

[pbottomley]

As for fashion, well I've spent my whole life taking great pleasure in being legendarily UNfashionable

Tell me about it, with hair like yours , you would be up against the wall and shot by the fashion police LOL

NO I am going to do an article on this very subject very soon, for cold snail's first dibs at editorship... Not sure how a fast slant 4 or a V6 sits within that argumnets but hey its worth a try[/code]

[griffonmark]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. We won't destroy the planet, we will destroy ourselves. And when we are gone it will once again become a lovely, lush, green place with little animals running around the place. Over many millions of years some of the animals will mutate and perhaps fish will grow legs and a very big brain and will invent the bicycle. And then he'll make an engine for it and make it safer by adding two more wheels. Not long after that, another fish will invent the VX490 2300 OHC and a fish called Beetham will make something called a Griffon 110 roadster and all will be well again.....


Thanks to Colin Goodwin Autocar for his inspiration

[droopsnoot]

In the case of my Rover, yes, I'd say the mileage is within the realms of believability given that the last owner was an old bloke.
6K a year is pretty average for a "town" driver.
My Dads older Rover has averaged half that over the last 10 years, which I *know* to be genuine.

Of course, it's always different if you know where the car has been. I really meant cars you just 'find' with suspiciously low mileages. I agree it's not worth a dealer clocking an old Rover, except that clocking it from 150k to 50k would probably be the difference between scrapping it for a tenner weigh-in value or selling it for £500 on a lot of cars, as you said elsewhere.

Bottom line though is if I see two identical condition looking cars (not talking classics here, I mean everyday runabouts), I'm
always gonna choose the one with the lower (if believable) mileage, irrespective of age.

Of course.