HB + Mazda 24v V6. Now sold and gone to a good home :-)

This is an area for discussion about modifications to Vivas.

Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:34 am

I have been busy looking into alternative engine choices for this viva....

I have done over 7500km in the viva since last October when I got it on the road. It has averaged bang on 21MPG. Not bad for what it is but not good enough for what I want- which is to use the car a lot more for long trips. So the rotor motor is gonna get pulled out.

I'm really excited actually- not sad. Soon I will get to do some serious work again on it. I'm thinking of it as a evolution thing. Many people have been trying to talk me out of it, buy another car, keep this as is etc. But I like the way this car drives, handles, the seats alone are fantastic. But I just want to drive it more!

So the last day or so I have been excitedly looking into many options. My favourite one which I hope will work out is this....

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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:37 am

So I went to a wreckers to measure up V6...

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... showing the horrible ugly inlet manifold. I would not be using this- I have some good ideas floating about in my head on how to make a neat plenum setup.
For other people who might be interested in these engines- here are the measurements I took. Its very compact for a V6.

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looks good to fit. plus the one they have there is a manual. But its only the 1.8 which although sweet revving in only about 140bhp.
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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:40 am

I did some measuring in my bay today. It looks good. I have 140mm in front of the crank pulley which is more than enough for a radiator and fans.
The NS cam bank will either just nudge the brake servo or it'll clear. I can 'manipulate' the servo brackets and shift it sideways another 30mm anyhow.
The top of the v6 manifold should be no higher than the current alternator position so I have plenty of room there.
The cam housings/ heads sit away from the bulk head by 100mm so enough room to use stock dizzy out back. Plus heads clear the clutch master.
The stock V6 is a front sump as is the rotary. How handy. The V6 sump is deeper above the crossmember but I would reshape it and have a bigger winged pan for extra oil.

I measured a friends rotary flywheel up. The rotary flywheel sits just 5 mm further away from the block- easy to sort when I make a flywheel spacer to suit whichever thickness engine to bell housing adaptor ring I make. Only problem is the rotary flywheel is 20mm larger in dia than the 1.8 V6 item. I know that others have used rx7 bell housings on V6 conversions so perhaps the larger 2.0 or 2.5 engines have a bigger flywheel diameter?

So it's looking good. I almost bought a complete mazda mx6 today- cheap but no mot or tax. I decided not to risk it and instead continue looking for a cheap engine by itself.

Half an hour later, after I had gotten off the phone to tell the fella in chch I wasn't going to buy his mx6, I found this bargain on trademe ending 2 hours later....

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =521174964

Which I have just bought. Its a K8 1.8 but I think being a J import it'll be the 144bhp ZE model plus it has all the parts I need to start with. At 100 quid its worth the punt. I'll just tow it to my parents and start striping it down next weekend. Very chuffed. Looking at a cheap KF 2.0L elsewhere too- again a JDM model with 160bhp. Hopefully I'll score that too.
yoeddynz
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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:40 am

Fantastic sunny day this morning when we drove out to the airforce base 5miles from my olds. Picking up the Eunos 500.

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Put a fresh charged battery in and after he reckons 3 years sitting (and it looked like it) it straight away. sweet! noisy lifters soon quietened down. Nearside CV joint blown so no test drive :( curse word.

A few old cars there in the yard including one of my favourites...

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So we fitted my slightly ropey looking tow rope... (see what I did there..)

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And cruised back home, slowly, me thinking this is a hard tow. Back wheels on Eunos were smoking.

Handbrake was on. ::)

Started stripping it back. got dash out and just cut the loom right back. Still some to remove. Quite fun job that I always enjoy, but even better in the sun while fuel'd with coffee.

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We taught one of the cats to take photos.

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Under the dash we had discovered some top Mazda engineering.

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And this box... I figure is the ecu for the auto box that this car originally had?

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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:41 am

I also won two other auctions and I am now the owner of not one but four V6's. 1.8, 2.0, 2.5.

The first auction was a low mileage (grain of salt..) 2 litre engine. It was too cheap even with some frieght to pass up. I think it might be a Jdm model engine so possibly the ZE with an extra 20bhp at 160.


http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =523014943

Then an hour later after I had won the above engine I was back on Trademe and scored massive bargain of a deal. I had found this auction..

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =523029713

for lots of V6 parts last week. It included among other bits;

Two 2.5 engines complete but semi assembled,

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A manual bellhousing to suit a Toyota W55 gearbox Celica, supra etc,

One lightened flywheel,

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One custom made inlet plenum for RWD application!!!...

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All for about 60 quid!!!! ;D

I watched the auction over the last 20minutes expecting the current bid at $125 to start soaring but nothing. Maybe 5.45pm on a Saturday is a bad time to have a auction finish- I don't know, but I bid a another $1 and got it! Even though I'll have to get it frieghted down its still a huge bargain.
I imagine the seller is a bit put out that it went so cheap but in the emails sent since he seems happy enough..I have told him its going into a Viva. He gave thumbs up. :)
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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:42 am

we popped back to Blenheim and pulled the engine out from the Eunos. Took longer than thought due to a few things like one wheel being seized on solid to the hub. Many big hammer blows later dealt to that.

Once the engine sat hanging from the chain withe the gearbox and all the other stuff in place it looked pretty big...

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With the box off I found the nice new clutch as fitted by the fella I bought the car from.

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As I stripped it down it looked better and better. Eventually I was left with the bare engine. By bare engine I mean no alternator, no powersteering, no inlet or exhaust manifolds, no clutch, no oil, no wiring loom. But I kept the flywheel in place. Then I weighed it, on two sets of scales to be sure, and it came up at 130kgs.
I will weigh the other bits in next few days to get an overall engine weight. Internet searches for engine weights seem to offer up all sorts of figures so its nice to know for sure.

I cant quite remember but I think a bare 12A block as above including flywheel is about 100kg. I never weighed my complete 12a turbo as it sits in the Viva but I figure its around 130kg. I will weigh it once pulled out.
So it looks like I am going add about 20-30kgs up front.

Getting it into the back of the van wasn't easy easy as shifting the small rotary about..

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All the stuuf we have stripped from the car and the tools certainly made the van sit down a touch at the back- although the vans springs are well over due for resetting anyway.

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The inlet manifold is huge. You can see the small footprint compared the overall size! Plus it weighs in at 12kg! Looking forwards to getting rid of that.

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I have some ideas for different inlet designs including one idea of building a variable length runner setup similar to F1 cars (but way cheaper and most likely not so pretty..)

I'm thinking that I could use the VRIS air valve control wires to switch on two solenoids sequentially and change the lengths in two stages. But I am not sure if the ECU uses the VRIS butterflys in two simple stages as the revs increase or if it goes through different combinations. It could all get a bit messy.


The other option would be to make a set length manifold and remove the VRIS stuff altogether. If I was to build a manifold with say lengths halfway between the longest and shortest length on the stock manifold will the ECU cope OK and just adjust the fueling as any other ECU would with a set length manifold?

I could also use that manifold that comes with the bulk lot of V6 engine stuff I bought from trade me. But I think its made for a low bonnet line lotus seven and hence has quite short runners- not very good for torque. Ideally I want the longest runners I can fit.

Its all new to me...so much to learn as always but I'm loving it!
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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby yoeddynz » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:44 am

Now after all those thread update dumps I am back up to date.

This evening I managed to locate and borrow an rx7 box from a bloody knowledgable and helpful fella called Stu. He also gave me a flywheel as I was looking for a ring gear to use…

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Got home and first thing was to try my V6 clutch disc. It fits!!! Thats great as its a brand new exedy clutch that came fitted to eunos.

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Next thing was to try the box onto the engine. Some ducks stood guard outside.

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Wow- I cant believe how close it is! I levelled the engine up and then levelled the box and one main bolt hole lines up perfectly on the side.

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The perimeter curve of the bellhousing follows very closely to the block curve and with some fettling and welding of some extra meat into the bellhousing I reckon it could be fitted up with out the need for a adaptor plate. An extra angle bracket could be bolted to the bottom of the block at the rear and then bolted to the bottom bellhousing holes. I will spend more time tomorrow evaluating it.

Another pleasant surprise was that the v6 ring gear is actually 290mm- not the 280mm I originally measured on the first engine looked over at the wreckers. The rx7 item is 300mm. So I need only to move the starter pinion in 5 mm to mesh. Hopefully this will be easy enough. The starter is centralised and located not by the bolts but a shoulder on the starter locating in the big hole. If I make the hole in the bellhousing bigger and then machine up a offset spacer ring it to centralise it where I want it.

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The rx7 box also puts the starter motor almost spot on in the right place fore and aft in relation to the v6 ring gear…which is nice.

I remeasured the length of the engine and double checked where it will sit in the viva. Then checked the engine mount positions on the block and related them to the Viva crossmember. The mounts should sit about 50 mm in forwards of the centre line of the cross member. This means that they should be well clear of the steering column as it comes down to meet the rack. Again very lucky.

If the car was to be a super dooper race car I would move the box back and with it have the engine further back- there is enough room, maybe 90mm, between the heads and the bulkhead. This though would place the gearstick too far back, involve shortening the prop shaft, less area between bellhousing and the tunnel for exhaust pipes and necessitate moving the clutch master cylinder.
But as the car is not a race car I'm happy with the position.

Another sweet thing is that not needing the powersteering pump or the AC pump means I can loose the front pulley. I will adapt or make a new alternator bracket and run it off the rearmost pulley. It means I can loose the silly, heavy, bulky, ugly tensioner bracket. I tension the alternator the old fashioned way- by swinging it out. The smaller crank pulley will mean I will be slightly under driving the alternator- will this be a problem? The stock alt is a 90 amp item. I have no major drains on the battery though- the Viva being devoid of posh things like electric windows etc anyhow.

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This lump of nasty can go..

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I also got out from my arsenal ofd fancy tools my faithful lump of timber. This I used to work out how much room I have between the sump line on the engine to the underside of my bonnet.

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Then worked out what space I will have on between the inlet manifold mounting face and the bonnet. About 190mm which is a fair amount of space to build something fairly nice- I want to build a manifold with quite long runners- similar in style to the Ford Mondeo BTTC cars of the 90's. (but cheaper..)

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Looking forwards to seeing what you fellow Viva nutters think of al this...
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Re: Mazda rotary turbo HB- Justin Bieber likes it....

Postby GeorgeG93 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:19 pm

Looks like some quality work going on there! Loving all the updates, is this to be the 4th type of engine put in your Viva haha? It's good inspiration reading all this, nice to see some unusual engines going into Vivas, I was looking at a last generation Mazda MX5 and thought about how good it would look, and they so tuneable! Keep up the good work man!
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Re: hB with Mazda rotary turbo. 24V V6 next.....

Postby hbpeter » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:20 pm

Lost for words. Totally amazing.

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Re: hB with Mazda rotary turbo. 24V V6 next.....

Postby yoeddynz » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:36 am

Yeah- I'm an engine swap slut..... :thanx:


I'm amazed the engine ran so well in the eunos given this……


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I might try make a cam angle sensor using the parts from this…

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Yep- after a good bike ride in the morning I spent this afternoon chilling in the sun stripping, cleaning and 'getting to know my engine'. I cleaned everything with a toothbrush and petrol.. well its cheap.

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There is a crank angle sensor locating hole. It has a little cover over it but the back of the pulley has a 6 point disc on it. Maybe there for the models that used eddis ignition? the Ford Propes ?

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Its looking much smaller and is loads lighter now. All the extra brackets and *Bleep* add up.

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There is a cool thing I have not seen before. It looks like a little resonance chamber to help amplify any knocking sounds to help the sensor to pick them up.

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Where the dizzy slots in. Much tidier without it sitting in place. I may yet continue using the stock dizzy to start with just to get the car back up on its wheels quickly using the stock ecu etc.

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I prefer the old mazda font but this is still cool...

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